CyberRebate - A Lesson Learned
One (and there were several) of the things that I learned from the whole CyberRebate saga is that I need to stand up for myself. You could probably say that I was a bit wussy. I did write the credit card company to dispute the charges. But, once they rejected the dispute and called a few times, I was afraid that I would get into some serious trouble. I was scared. So, I paid them off.
Looking back, I feel that I was bullied. Part of it was that I did not understand the situation and my rights fully. I certainly did not know that I could have sued the credit card company! So, I won't be backing down so easily if this kind of thing happens again.
If I had fought the credit card company, I may have eventually lost anyway. But, at least I would have given it a shot. By backing down right away, I lost everything. But, by fighting back, I may have gotten something back, and maybe, everything back.
Well, I am not an expert on credit cards. But, here is what I know. I use credit cards as a protection against merchants that fail to provide the promised goods and services. In the CyberRebate saga, the merchant failed to provide the promised rebates. Discover countered that the rebates are separate contracts between the buyers and merchant, so Discover should not be responsible for the unpaid rebates. This thing goes on-and-on, back-and-forth.
If you want the whole juicy tidbits to the saga, Google "Discover CyberRebate". It turns out there were a lot of people fighting back. There were some winners. There were some losers.
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I see you started a thread on ponzi schemes which is a good service. I will give you that at the time you got into the cyber rebate scam that you were too niave to see the scam. Everyone gets enticed by the something for nothing idea at one time or another, and it sounds like you have learned a good lesson from it.
However, I must say that I find it insulting for you to suggest to your readers that you should not have been held responsible to bear the consequences of that decision and instead that the credit card companies should have bailed you out.
Its convinient to say that it was the credit card companies' responsibility to refund your money because you didn't get the promised refund but you do realize that the consequences of such an action means that the credit card companies had to eat all of that loss and then pass it on to everyone else. This is not a matter of a vendor not delivering products or not delivering the product promised. They delivered exactly what they promised. A $150.00 CD. Now come on. You were willing to pay that $150.00 for that CD. The fact that they vastly over charged you is not an issue. You knew it and did it anyway because of the promised rebate. They went broke before you could get your rebate. Not really a surprise and not the credit card company's problem.
One of the most important lessons of finances is to make good decisions with your money. How you spend it, how you invest it, how you save it, where you put it. Almost no where is there going to be someone to come along and bail you out for making a bad decision with your money. If you want to teach your readers a good lesson on finances, then tell them that when you make a bad decision with your money, your money goes away and its your responsibility. Do not deflect the blame to a third party. That propagates the illusion that you can afford to be flipant with your money as long as you can arrange it so someone else is there to bail you out.
I do not mean sound harsh, its just that finances are people's own responsiblity and to be frank, trying to get out of making a bad decision by making someone else pay for it is a bit repulsive in my mind. Especially for someone running a blog on how to manage your finances.
It looks like we are going to agree to disagree on this one.
The whole issue comes down to the rebates. That determines who is liable for the unpaid rebates. You believe that the purchase transaction and the rebate are two separate transactions. I believe that the purchase transaction and the rebate is just one transaction. The Courts have gone both ways on this one. Some buyers got their money back. Some buyers had to eat their lost. So, the issue is not so cut-and-dry.
I most certainly would not be willing to pay $150 for a CD. If the rebate was not part of the transaction, I would not have heard of CyberRebate.
Obviously you would not pay 150 for the CD without the rebate. Thats the scam. Did the company screw you over? Yup. Should they be held liable to whatever extent possible? Yup. But they are broke, or so they declared. Why this becomes the credit card company's problem is beyond me.
Do you expect a full refund of the charges? You did get a CD which has value. If you purchased a TV from Walmart for $100 dollars and there was a $10 rebate and the company giving the rebate didn't honor it or went broke would you expect the credit card company to give you that money? Can you honestly say you would think the credit card company had a responsibility to pay the rebate that the company did not?
How about this, Subway recently decided to stop using their stamps for free subs. If you bought all your subs on your credit card and then you couldn't get your free sub, is the credit card company responsible to pay you for a free sub?
How about a points based system where you get points on the things you purchase and the company giving the points went broke before you could redeem them. Is the credit card company responsible to give you the value of the points because of everything you purchased on the credit card.
Some airline companies have gone broke and others may as well. If they don't honor their frequent flyer miles or even worse, frequent flyer points that were accumulated through credit card purchses is the credit card company responsible to buy you free airline tickets?
And with respect to the courts. Juries hand out huge verdicts to make the big guy bail out the little guy all the time. Some times the big guy is being evil and should pay but just because a court found that some credit card companies should pay doesn't make any point in the argument. The question is not whether you could get the credit card company to pay. The question is whether you should get the credit card company to pay.
Again, I go back to the fact that the company that ran the charges is broke. They have already been paid by the credit card company. Many millions no doubt. So the end result is the credit card company will lose millions of dollars to pay for all of the mistakes made by the individuals who were taken by Cyber Rebate.
My question to you is, do you think the credit card company is the one who at the end of the day should be left with the huge loses from this scam? Because that is the end result of what you are arguing and I would like to know why you think they should lose millions of dollars because of poor choices made by thousands of people who purchased a rediculously priced product with a scam promise on their credit cards.
If you can make a convincing argument why they should pay all the loses, I would be happy to hear it.
The CyberRebate mess was simply a whole different ballgame. It simply can not be compared to the other "normal" rebates that you mentioned. Paying $100 less a $10 rebate for a $90 TV is very different from paying $1000 less a $1000 rebate for that same $90 TV.
In the former case, it is going to be difficult to argue that one did not get the "promised" merchandise. Overall, one is out $10 or approximately 11%. In the latter case, it should be clear that one did not get the "promised" merchandise. Overall, one is out $910 or approximately 1000%.
Regarding frequent flyer miles and sandwich cards, they act more like rewards than rebates. These are two different things. If you help an old lady cross the street and she gives you a dollar, that would be considered a reward. She was under no obligation to give you that money in the first place.
The other thing that I have yet to mention is the customer's chargeback rights. If the buyer did not get the "promised" merchandise, the buyer has the right not to pay. And, in the CyberRebate case, the buyers were also scammed, as opposed to making a bad decision. So, the buyer should have the right not to pay. And, the credit card company should not send the money to the merchant also.
The credit card company does sometimes end up eating the lost. It is simply the cost of doing business. And, before you feel too bad for them, they made some extra money from the merchant fee on the overinflated prices.
Look, the brutal fact is you made an extremely stupid decision to pay 150 dollars for a 15 dollar CD. I don't care what they said, you have to be niave to not wonder what is going on with such a rediculous arrangement.
Credit card companies pay merchants within 2-3 days of a charge being run, they can't "not pay them" they already have.
so small rebates are different transacations and big rebates are one transaction? Come on.
Don't feel sorry for the credit card company, they got to charge 2% transaction fees which makes up for the fact that they will lose 100% of the transaction?
All of your logic in this line of reasoning is terrible. Sorry but I cannot take you seriously.
I rate this blog a zero on financial quality.
I am sorry to say that I can not give you the answers that you seek. However, if you go to the CyberRebate forums, you may find you answer there.
The thread was about what I learnedfighting back and standing up for my rights. And I am sticking to my original claim that I had chargeback rights because the merchant did not provide the "promised" merchandise. This is a basic right that all credit card users have. Keep in mind that all, except one credit card company, did give me back my money. So, my claim is not without merits.
You are absolutely correct that it would be a stupid decision to pay $150 for a $15 CD. If such a transaction is legit, then drug dealers have a way to move money around (aka money laundering). No reasonable person would consummate such a transaction. That is why you MUST include the rebate as part of the transaction.
